SACHA PFEIFFER, HOST:
For a Democratic perspective on this, we have California representative Ro Khanna. He co-sponsored the resolution for public release of the Epstein files. Good morning, Congressman.
RO KHANNA: Good morning.
PFEIFFER: House Speaker Johnson is saying he blocked a vote on your resolution because he's trying to balance accountability, making public what may be in those files, with protecting the innocent - the privacy of some people in the files. What's your take on what he's done?
KHANNA: Well, he's not only blocked a vote, he literally ended Congress to prevent a vote. He has stopped Congress and all of the business of this week because he doesn't want to have a vote. He knows he would lose the vote. My resolution with Thomas Massie clearly says that victims' identities should be protected, that no salacious pornography should be released. We simply are seeking the interview memos and evidence on who all was involved in the sex trafficking that Epstein led.
PFEIFFER: Could a vote still happen when Congress returns, which could be disadvantageous to Johnson if the vote is simply delayed and that delay keeps the story in the news?
KHANNA: A vote will happen. The reality is I have all 212 Democrats who will sign the discharge petition. And yesterday when I spoke to Thomas Massie, he said that we are up to about 11 to 12 on the Republican side. We only need six. And I anticipate, as people are back in their districts, they're going to get more and more pressure to co-sponsor Massie and my resolution and sign the discharge petition. So when we come back, it will.
PFEIFFER: Why do you think you are able to get numerous Republicans on board, given how loyal they are to Trump, typically, even Republicans like Marjorie Taylor Greene?
KHANNA: You know, candidly, I was surprised. Massie and I had done a war powers resolution to stop the war in Iran. He was the only Republican we had. This time, we have Marjorie Taylor Greene, Lauren Boebert, Tim Burchett, Nancy Mace - some of the most prominent MAGA voices. I think it's because it goes to the heart of Donald Trump and MAGA's campaign. They said they were going to get rid of the corruption. They said they were going to expose the Epstein files. They said they weren't going to protect the rich and powerful. They said they were going to be on the side of the people. It was the populist campaign they ran, and this is seen as a betrayal of that. It's seen as protecting rich and powerful men who abused and abandoned, assaulted young girls.
PFEIFFER: This is a hypothetical because we don't know what's in those files yet, but in a best-case scenario for you, what would you discover in the files and what would you do with that information?
KHANNA: First, just the release is the best-case scenario because it's a step to restore trust of the American public, even if there's nothing in there, and no one knows what's in there. But right now, the government has lost trust. What, though, should come out is if there are powerful and rich men who did engage in sex trafficking or were on Epstein's plane, went to Epstein's island, that information should come out, and people should be held accountable.
PFEIFFER: And how much of this is also about Democrats hoping to weaken President Trump's standing with his base and other voters who support him?
KHANNA: Honestly, when I introduced the resolution, and then Thomas Massie called me, I thought this thing would pass. It was much more about us getting Democrats being on the side of transparency, being on the side of people, being against sex trafficking, being for disclosure. I'm surprised at the way the Republicans have handled this. I'm surprised that this has become a kryptonite for the MAGA base. But the reality is, this is the first thing probably since Donald Trump walked down the elevator that has truly split his base. It's the first time you're seeing prominent Republicans in the House, not just Thomas Massie, but others stand up to the president and say he's wrong. He should release these files.
PFEIFFER: Well, it is striking that you said you got more support on this than you did for an antiwar resolution.
KHANNA: It's sad to me. I mean, I think this is very important. I think us not getting into another war in the Middle East is even more important. But we - Massie and I did that. We couldn't get one other Republican, even though there were a lot of Republicans who didn't want us to get into that war. Here we have 11 already, and it's growing. It just shows the intensity of this with a lot of MAGA voters.
PFEIFFER: In about 30 seconds or so - and I've asked several people about this this week - do you think the general public cares about this as much as we are hearing in news headlines?
KHANNA: They do. You know, I was down in South Carolina. Someone said, Ro, when you're going down there in the Black South, you know, mention health care, mention jobs. I'm not sure they're going to care about the Epstein files. I said I was pushing for release of the Epstein files, and we got the loudest applause at these town halls. It's online. So I think I'm going to be going back home at town halls. I think this is something people care about because it's about whose side are you on. Are you for protecting the rich and the powerful, or are you on the side of the people and America's children? It's the most basic test.
PFEIFFER: That is California Congressman Ro Khanna. Thank you for your time.
KHANNA: Thank you. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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